Og and RobertaX are having a (sorta) discussion (or argument) regarding Islam. Her side starts HERE, his is HERE.
While I enjoy talking with them both, and can see both sides, I must say that Roberta is being soft hearted and Pollyanna-Ish in her viewpoint.
Og has the right of it. Read back a few of his posts for some history. Same with Roberta....
While there are many nice, decent, law abiding citizens who are of the Muslim faith, the fact remains that the religion does have the Koran as it's word. These are (supposedly) the words of Muhammad. And they must be followed. Or you aren't a good Muslim. Period. If you haven't read the Koran (I have), it is full of hate for infidels, and it's rules for society make women no better than cattle. My thanks to CAIR for providing me with the book that opened my eyes to Islam. If you haven't read it, then you should, especially before making such judgements.
Sadly, Islam does not allow it's followers to pick and choose. It is not an ala-carte sort of religion. You cannot be a devout Muslim and be a good citizen of the US. Period. Nor can you be a devout muslim and be a member of the US military. The society mandated by Islam is at odds with the society of the US.
(You cannot be a practicing Catholic and work at an abortion clinic, either, and for the same reasons.)
While not all Muslims are terrorists, the fact remains that most terrorists are Muslims.
And the major Muslim organizations do nothing to purge the radicals from their religion. They are supported by someone.....
Not all spree shooters are Muslims. But not all spree shooters cry "Allah Akbar!" before shooting people. Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc have been murderers in this country. But few others do the deed in the name of their god or their faith. And they are condemned by their church immediately.
Sadly, not so with Islam.
This is a topic I am dropping but I will give it one more try:
ReplyDeleteWhat is "Pollyanna" about saying we should stop people who iniitiate force against others, as quickly and as harshly as possible?
What is Pollyanna about the *accurate* observation that on that day, no other Muslim in the U.S. armed forces did anything like what Major Hasan did day?
I don't have a very good opinion or religion generally (take a look at Acts 5:1-10, for instance, or read up on John Calvin and the Spanish Unitarian. You can find lots of other examples) and I think Islam stands out for crumminess even so. However, we have this thing here in the United States called the First Amendment, which says you can believe any damfoolery you want and as long as you dodge libel, slander and treason, you can say and write anything you want, too. It doesn't say "except Catholics," though U. S. Supreme Court Justice John Jay would have liked it to; he thought their loyalty to the Pope kept them from being proper citizens. It doesn't "except Chinamen and Chrerokees" and it doesn't say "except Moslems." And if you add any fine print to it along those lines, you destroy it.
Og thinks there can be no peace, ever; in so doing, he loses the chance to apply pressure to the meme, by killing or locking up all the attackers. And he loses the chance to undermine their strident fight-to-the-death rhetoric.
I don't think you can make 'em friends. But if enough of them get took out for making trouble for enough generations, either you'll civilize 'em or (if Og is right) they'll Darwin themselves right out of existence. Geez, their most aggressive young already blow themselves up; this is not a survival trait.
If that's "Pollyanna," fine. I prefer to judge people one at a time, harshly. The whole group thing, it leads to reservations and far, far worse. And I have ancestors who skipped out on the Trail of Tears already; it's no way to go.
Roberta, I like and respect you. On this subject you are demonstrably and provably wrong. if you believe you are not, have the discussion with me, in private if necesary. As much as I value your friendship I would rather you hate me and understand the facts for what they are than like me and think I'm a fool. Your safety and awareness is worth more to me than anything. Islam doesn't come at you like a home intruder, it eats your house like a termite, and before you know it, you're sleeping outside.
ReplyDeleteI know about the trail of tears too. I also have relatives among those peoples(through marriage) Next time it won't be cherokee and creek and choctaw, it will be everyone, and just like those native americans, it will be because of willful ignorance of the capability of the oppressors.
I would hate to think that you preferred willful ignorance to uncomfortabloe knowledge.
Having the discussion out in the open is important.
ReplyDeleteI don't usually link-whore myself so much, but think it's just that important.
Roberta,
ReplyDeleteyou're an idiot.
Islam carries within it the poisonous doctrine of "fitna", a concept that denies the ability to separate church and state. Islam is not so much a religion as a collection of tribal rules set up as a sociopolitical ruling system.
Islam also denies the right of any other religion to exist. If you're not "of the book" (muslim, jew, christian) you get killed right off. If you're jew or christian, you can "exist" provided that (a) your kids are raised muslim, (b) you never talk to anyone else about your non-muslim faith, (c) if your place of worship is damaged/destroyed you are not allowed to rebuild it.
Islam is a choking malaise. "Wherever Islam takes root, freedom dies." It should be treated, not as a religion, but for what it is - a criminal organization and subversive movement of backwards, misogynistic political control.
Anonymous above: great job of convincing people.
ReplyDeleteYou're also wrong: pagans and others not fo the book have the option to convert. True, if you refuse, they kill you. But if you're gonna make a strong argument, at least get the details right.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI believe Anonymous above was speaking of "if you refuse to convert" as the options.
If you're not "of the book" (Xtian or Jew), your options are: Convert Or Die.
If you're "of the book", your options are: Convert, "live" as a virtual slave under Muslim theocracy, or Die.
The inseparability of Islamic religion from Islamic politics is also a widely researched and proven phenomenon. More info can be provided if you wish.
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