The Weavers surrendered.
10 days of standoff, countless man hours, hundreds of thousands of dollars....wasted.
All because of a lie perpetrated by the ATF......
Harris was acquitted of all charges.
Weaver was charged with failure to appear (remember, his appearance letter stated the wrong date) and fined $10,000 (the feds had to save some face, right?)
The weavers later sued, and then settled for wrongful death of Vicki Weaver and Sammi Weaver. The settlement was $100,000 for Randy and $1,000,000 for each of his three daughters.
But Sammi and Vicki are still dead.
I met Randy about 10 or 12 years ago.....He is a broken man. Damaged beyond the ability to heal. I feel for him. All the money in the world won't fix his loss.....But a chance at those agents might.....
Lon Horiuchi was indcticted for Manslaughter, but the Feds claimed Sovereign Immunity... He went free and later, the charges were dropped even though the Ninth Circuit reversed the claim of sovereign Immunity.........No other Federal Agents were charged...nor, as far as any evidence shows, were any of the FBI, the Marshalls Service, nor the ATF agents even demoted or in any way punished for the lies, or mismanagement that led up to this incident. Some were even promoted.
Trust your government. Really..
Next time it might be you.....
You don't think that Randy Weaver in any way contributed to the problem or put gasoline on the fire?
ReplyDeletehow do *you* think he did?
ReplyDeleteOh, I think he made things worse by:
ReplyDelete1. Not showing up in court after he was released on bond and giving his word to show up. This came AFTER he was arrested for missing his first court date, the one where he was told to show up in March when the date was actually February. He was simply released and told to come back for the next date, and it's all he had to do.
2. Randy and his crazy wife Vicki sat up in their cabin and sent off dozens of letters to the courts and various federal agencies ranting about Zionist conspiracies and proclaiming that they would prefer to shoot it out and die before submitting to the laws of this country. They both made similar threats on shortwave radio interviews by various militia types. Both were hardcore racists spouting violent threats and they did this for a year and a half. Randy even actually DARED the government to try to come get him on at least one interview. And again, all the guy had to do was simply show up in court and answer the charges like a man. Instead, he hid behind his wife and kids and shouted threats. You know what happens when you threaten and claim to be dangerous? Sometimes people take you at your word.
Weaver begged for that fight for over a year and a half, and his wife was right there with him. He was a hardcore racist and an anti-semite and definitely not one of the good guys. He was just a bad person who liked guns, but sadly, that's often enough to endear him to a lot of people on the pro-gun fringe.
While the government certainly handled the matter poorly, I don't see it as a conspiracy or a plot to deliberately do wrong. Remember, the battle heated up when Weaver's kid and the skinhead Kevin Harris murdered William Degan, a federal officer who WAS one of the good guys and just there to do his job. There's no justifying that or whitewashing it. I do feel bad for the Weaver kids, but they suffered because their parents forced them into that situation and refused to let them leave months before when the police requested that they do so. Randy and Vicki hid behind those kids and that was pretty cowardly and contemptible in my opinion. But then again, it was cowardly and contemptible of Weaver to refuse to appear in court pursuant to lawfully brought charges, too. That alone though would likely have just resulted in a bench warrant being filed and nothing more. It was his repeatedly running off at the mouth with his threats to shoot people and the threatening letters that he and his wife kept sending everyone that escalated things. Surely you can acknowledge that, right? And how can you defend it?
Interesting take on things there, Murph:
ReplyDeleteI like how you (or whoever told you abou this) twisted the facts...You obviously hang out with Feds from that era....
(Not gonna argue here in comments on my blog, but much of what you have written above is, at best, wrong....and at worst, lies. You obviously side with the Feds on all things, and it shows here. You lack objectivity....and you fail to see (or acknowledge) the things the Feds did wrong...from the get go.
Each time you do this (make excuses for government workers who have done inexcusable things), I lose a bit of respect for you....Yes, Weaver could have done a lot to make the outcome better. He could have chosen not to be a separatist and move to Idaho too..... But really, this can all be laid at the feet of the ATF agents who tried to coerce him, then lied about it, then lied again, then asked the US Marshalls to fix it, who then totally screwed the pooch.....Who shot at people wile trespassing on their property...and then had to lie to the FBI to fix the Marshalls screw up.
Which led to Ron Horiuchi killing Vicki Weaver under an on scene modification of the ROE...Rules that non FBI SWAT people chose NOT to follow because the felt that they were advocating murder....
You can state whatever lies you wish....the FBI and ATF and USM fucked this up...in a group. Everyone followed order and no one was in charge. No rational person can explain away the fuck ups of the ATF, USM, and the Feebs. Ii was this, and then Waco that led to a great deal of mistrust in the Federal Government that persists today.
B,
ReplyDeleteGood rebuttal.
Now tell me, what's your take on Timothy McVeigh?
later,
-Moe
B., does EVERY rebuttal HAVE to start out with a personal attack against me? What's that supposed to accomplish?
ReplyDeleteAs to objectivity, I'm thinking that I'm the only one tat has any here. I already stated that the feds screwed this up. That wasn't the issue though. The point I raised--and that you asked for clarification on--was that Randy and Vicki Weaver contributed to the situation and helped bring about the escalation of force used to arrest Weaver. And you say that's "lies"? Which part is the lie? Did Randy Weaver have a warrant for his arrest? Was Randy Weaver fleeing/resisting the authority of the court that issued it? And if the police have a warrant for your arrest, that authorizes them to go where you are suspected to be, so what "trespassing" took place? The feds had the right to be on his land by virtue of the arrest warrant. But if you disagree, please explain how that law doesn't apply in this particular case.
And then there is Vicki Weaver's crazy threatening letters to the US Attorney and others where she rants about only obeying Yaweh and not recognizing American laws, then promising blood flowing and death to tyrants if anyone tries to arrest her husband. Do you deny that she sent those letters? Because that's all on the internet in court documents from the case. What have I said that is untrue?
More to the point, why do you support this guy totally just because he hates the government--the one that our founding fathers set up for everyone to live under, BTW--and likes guns? Not everyone who likes guns is a good person and I submit that the Weavers were definitely not good or honorable people. The feds were wrong in this case, but so were the Weavers, and had they complied with lawful authority, none of this would ever have happened, IMHO. Please show me where I'm wrong, preferably without name-calling or insulting me.
Well, lets start with the warrant...the one for failure to appear (forget that the charge was bogus, trumped up by the ATF because he wouldn't cooperate by turning snitch).....The failure to appear was caused by a clerks mistake....wrong date. Mar 20 instead of Feb 20, IIRC...The judge was informed of the mistake but issued the bench warrant anyway...this led to the US Marshall Service....who were told to wait until March 20, but didn't....
ReplyDeleteWeaver did compound this by refusing to talk after that. Could have stopped the whole thing there, but he didn't
Oh, and those letters you claim? ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence that they ever existed. No one could find them not a one. Seems that the letters were the hearsay of the ATF's informant, and no one else. Not one copy *that could be traced to her* was introduced as evidence. Just the word of a bunch of known lying government agents. If she wrote all those dozens of letters, doncha think at least ONE might have survived to be introduced as evidence? (See that is what I meant by twisting the facts and lack of objectivity)...
The Marshalls had ample opportunity to arrest Weaver away from the cabin, but chose not to....instead they surveiled his cabin for MONTHS...Playing "Operator" and not doing anything but make up more lies...like the statement that he had shot at the helicopter, even though other US Marshalls never heard shots while the helicopter was overhead, and even though the pilot denied that his chopper had been shot at.
Was Weaver paranoid? Perhaps. But then again, in his shoes, I might have been as well. agents of not one, but *TWO* government agencies were trying to railroad him. I'd be a bit paranoid as well.
ReplyDeleteDid Weaver make bad choices? Yes, he did. Many. But there was no good choices by then, really. Did the government agents try to railroad him because he would't cooperate with them against the Aryan Nations? Yep. The pressure that the Feds can bring is immense. I know this. (another story for another time)
Weaver wasn't innocent in all of this. But all he wanted to do was to move to Idaho and live alone...away from minorities which he perceived to be soon a major problem (and he was correct, just about 15 years too soon....The ATF started this mess and escalated it .
Now here is the thing. Had they arrested Sammy and Harris, that would have been one thing...but they didn't....they shot a dog that was with them....I would have shot back too. So, likely, would you. One US Marshall lost his life, but THEY were the ones who started the whole mess,...and then THEY opened the ball by shooting at the Weaver kid and his dog. Absolutely zero justification, except that they had to hide the fact that they couldn't even creep around in the woods very well. Remember, they were just "Following orders"...No one ever questioned the validity of the original charges. Then they compounded the issue with more lies to make their case look better.
Remember, Weaver was INNOCENT of all the charges they brought. The most they could charge him with was failure to appear when it was the GOVERNMENT who screwed that up by informing him of the wrong date.
I don't "support this guy totally". And the "government that our Founding Fathers set up" isn't what we have today, nor is it what he encountered. And exactly where do you find that anything the ATF or the Marshalls Service did was "Lawful" or where they were "Lawfull Authority"? Fact is, Weaver got caught up in the gears of "F Troop" (called that for a reason, you know...) and couldn't escape.
I don't consider him a hero, but rather a tragedy. I also don't consider those agencies to be my government...they are neither trustworthy nor honorable. I have not had the pleasure of ever encountering an ATF agent in the field, but I have had experience with the US Marshall Service (twice) and the FBI (once) in their endeavors (no, I wasn't being investigated)...I have not found either of those agencies to be competent, honorable nor honest. I hope to never ever have to cross paths with either service again...it'd be easier just to shoot them than to have to deal with them, and likely less painful consequences (I kid, but only barely)
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ReplyDeleteSadly, we give these people great power with little oversight....and what little management they do have tends to side with them even against evidence that they are misbehaving. I find that sad. I also find it disturbing....not that they are human, but that there are so few checks against their bad behavior. This isn't the only incident, remember....A few months later there was Waco...an even bigger debacle and an even greater loss of life...with lies (and the destruction and manufacture of evidence) before, during and after by the agents involved....Mostly to cover the actions of some very bad men with government power behaving badly.
ReplyDeleteAre all federal agents bad? No, only a few. But the good ones look the other way when the bad ones misbehave. They still support their fellow agents. Same with the US Marshall Service. What was once an honorable and unimpeachable group has decayed...badly...
If you feel that I have insulted you here, I am sorry. I don't see where I have, but if you feel so, then please, accept my apologies. I can't see where I called you names, either.
I have researched this a lot after meeting Randy. I doubt that you have done so in depth as I have. I also doubt that you have been on the wrong side of the Federal Agent Juggernaut (I have, it sucks). Had you investigated, or had you had my experience, it might change your views.
Re: Vicki Weaver's letters, the Justice Department report on the incident after it was over cites a couple of them right here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opr/legacy/2006/11/09/rubyreport40_84.pdf
She also filed an affidavit with the county in February of 1985 saying that she believed that her and her husband would have to defend themselves with force against the federal government. There were others, too. It's all out there for anyone to look up and find, as is the fact that in January of 1985--seven years before Randy's stand-off, the Secret Service investigated him for reportedly threatening President Reagan and other federal officials during one of the Aryan Nations meetings that he attended. ATF had never even heard of this guy back then.
You probably have looked into this a great deal, and I won't take that away from you. I just know that Randy Weaver was the subject of a lawfully-issued arrest warrant and under our laws, he and his wife had no right to "defend themselves" against law enforcement officers doing what a judge told them to do. The fact that the Weavers hid behind their children and subjected those kids to such risk only increases my contempt for them as human beings. And let us never forget that Randy Weaver was not ever "innocent" of the original charges. He was found "not guilty" in court (there's a difference) but it's undeniable that he did, in fact, produce two sawed-off shotguns for an informant that he believed to be a fellow racist neo-nazi. The case was badly handled and under our laws, should have been dismissed, but it doesn't change the fact that he still did it, and no one to this day denies it, not even him. Even though the case was flawed and he could not be prosecuted, he still meant to do wrong.
I'll stand by a good person who is wrongfully accused or threatened when they have done nothing wrong, but the fact here is that even despite the government's stunning incompetence in this case, the Weavers were still the villains--mentally unstable and dangerous. I expect our government, acting on our behalf, to remove such people from our midst when they break the law or present a threat to others as the Weavers clearly did. I just expect them to do it right and in accordance with the laws.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete(reposted to fix a shitload of misspelling and grammar and lack of clarity caused by trying to post this quickly while at work...)
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, the file you quote doesn't quite the letters attributed to Cicki Weaver... fails to note the there were NO fingerprints on those letters....none. Odd that. Very odd. Paper takes fingerprints very well. They couldn't be tied to any person. The ATF and then the Marshal Service claimed that the Weavers sent the letters, but, as I stated earlier, could not tie them to the Weavers. Weaver states that they did not send the letters. The man he originally went to court with (an ATF stooge?) claimed that the Weavers were plotting to kill the President and (oddly) the Pope....but they couldn't substantiate that either (The ATF apparently had really poor criteria for what made a reliable informant in those days)...Weaver does admit to the letter that he handed over for transmittal that basically says "I no longer trust the government anymore"...which, while foolish, I can understand.
Again, Weaver didn't help himself. But he WAS being railroaded by the ATF. They CLAIMED he sold the short stocked shotguns. But who really did the cutting? We have a lot of evidence that they had lied already...and they were using the shotguns as a lever to get him to inform on some fairly dangerous people...Weaver was never tried on the original charges. He claims he was innocent...He was never tried, only indicted on the word of the ATF agents... The feds had the chance after Ruby Ridge, but chose not to try him...wonder why? Then the Marshalls fucked up and then escalated things to hide the fact. It was only when they got one of their people killed that they brought in the FBI for help. By then, things were foreordained to turn ugly. Weaver's choices at that point were Bad and Worse. Sadly, he chose Worse....
It still comes down to the "F Troop" boys that caused this. Weaver made it worse, but the deaths of the Weavers and Degan were caused by the ATF.
And yet, no one was ever even demoted for it, much less prosecuted or fired.
P,S....where are you getting all of your info? It doesn't seem to match up with history (as documented) very well. I'm not saying you are wrong, mind you, I just don't find that your statements match up well with the preponderance of the (many) write ups on this incident, from many sources on both sides of the aisle ...Which is why I figured you had heard it from a Fed from that time.
ReplyDelete